LegalEagle Answers 12tone’s Questions About Copyright – Real Law Review

LegalEagle Answers 12tone’s Questions About Copyright – Real Law Review

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– Thanks to Audible for
keeping LegalEagle in the air. (patriotic music) Hey, LegalEagles, it’s
time to think like a lawyer and today we are going to
have a somewhat unusual video of some of my favorite YouTubers
who are here at VidCon. So I thought I would take the opportunity to corral some of these great
YouTubers to spend some time and talk about some of the legal issues that they deal with on an everyday basis being creators on YouTube. And I am thrilled that we have the creator of one of my favorite
music-related channels. This is Cory Arnold from 12tone. Cory, thank you so much for joining us on the yet-to-be-titled,
LegalEagle interview show. – Yeah, thanks for having me. Like Devin said, my name is Cory. I run a channel called 12tone. I’m a music theorist and I do a bunch of different types of musical analysis. One of our main series is we’ll
look at pop and rock songs and the harmony and the
compositional aspects of those which I think pretty clearly
falls under commentary and critique in terms of fair
use but I still obviously, I get a lot of fraudulent copyright claims and I was wondering, I know that the actual copyright
claim system inside YouTube is not an actual legal entity but once it gets to DMCA
takedown notices and stuff, I’m wondering what the disincentives are for major labels and whatever to issue those sorts of fraudulent claims because I mean, I hope there are some. – Yeah, well, it’s a great
question because obviously, copyright is a huge issue
on YouTube these days, both some of the people who
are pirating things illegally and creators who are doing things that are perfectly
within their legal rights and yet they are still being claimed by some of the rights holders. We’ve seen a lot of traffic coming from some of the major music studios. I’m sure you and I
could probably name some that are particularly known for making false claims against creators. And so an answer to your question, yes, there are actual
penalties for companies and individuals that make false claims and there are a couple of things. Most of them stem from what’s called the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act or the DMCA. And as you alluded to,
one of the mechanisms that a rights holder has to
take down what they consider to be illegal material is a DMCA takedown and that is basically the company saying to a platform or a website, you are hosting material that is illegal and you should take it down. I’m giving you notice of it. And really, if the platform or website wants to avoid being liable
for copyright infringement, they have to take it
down and that’s something that a lot of creators don’t understand is that YouTube sometimes
doesn’t have discretion to take it down. But that being said, there
are ways of making sure that when companies do
take creators’ videos down, there are some penalties to them. The first is that when
you issue a DMCA takedown, that’s a real legal document. That is not the YouTube Content ID system. This is something that’s enshrined in law. And the most important thing is that if you issue a DMCA takedown in bad faith and it ultimately goes to court, you can be liable for attorney’s fees. And so, there’s a bit of
a fee-shifting provision in the DMCA that if you don’t issue a takedown in good faith,
you might be on the hook for not only your own attorney’s fees but the attorney’s fees of the plaintiff. Companies, even the studios
and labels are very reluctant to issue DMCA takedowns
because they can be on the hook for copyright misrepresentation
and they can be on the hook for the attorney’s fees if the creator sues
them under Section 512 f which is the misrepresentation
part of that statute. Unfortunately, creators are not likely to sue the rights holders for
making these false claims. I’d love to hear from your perspective what has happened to the extent that you have had to deal with with some of these takedowns. – Yeah, so I’ve gotten a fair
amount of copyright claims all from one label who I
probably shouldn’t name, I don’t know. But mainly, just a lot
of videos that I’ve done, whenever I’ve done their songs, the one time what has gone
a little a bit further, I actually got one actual
takedown notice from the label, not the major label that
was making the claim, it was the rights holders
for the individual, the band. – Ah, interesting.
– They issued a takedown and then I took it to the next level on the YouTube appeals process which says effectively either
back off or actually sue me, take me to court and they
weren’t gonna do that. But once I filed that, pretty quickly, I get this email from the
lawyers of that band saying, hi, we are this band’s lawyer
and we got this notification. We would like to investigate further but we can’t watch the video
because it’s not on YouTube and no one in this office has seen it so could you send us a
copy so we can figure out if this is copyright infringement? I was just like, no, I can’t do that. I didn’t have it. In the first place, it was an old video but it was just like in that case, if your client didn’t
check with their lawyers, that feels like a pretty
obvious admission of negligence. – Yeah, that’s pretty crazy and it’s not at all surprising frankly because often the people that issue the first content ID claims are not connected to the legal departments of these same companies and sometimes, the training isn’t very good
and it will be a non-lawyer that issues one of these DMCA takedowns. And after the DMCA takedown is issued, the video goes down and
the lawyers can’t view it, you can’t view it which is hysterical that you had to deal with the lawyers even asking to take a look at your video. And there’s a famous Ninth Circuit case called Lenz versus UMG. People may be familiar with UMG. – I’ve heard the name, yes. – And it involves a case where
they issued a DMCA takedown without even really considering
whether fair use applied and the Ninth Circuit
said the DMCA requires you to form a good faith belief
before you issue the takedown, and not forming a belief is not the same as a good faith belief and so they got severely reprimanded for issuing this takedown without really considering fair use. And so now, it is really
the law of the land, at least in California and
the rest of the Ninth Circuit that you have to at least consider whether the video is fair use or not or you could be liable
for misrepresentation and in libel for attorney’s
fees for the improper takedown. – And that’s interesting. It’s like in cases where you don’t just get an email from their lawyer saying we didn’t look at this, ’cause in my understanding,
and I might be wrong here, but my understanding is
that in terms of fair use, nothing actually is or
isn’t fair use technically until a judge rules on it so what is the process
of proving that you did or didn’t have a good faith
belief that it wasn’t fair use? – Yeah, I think those
are two separate things. I’ve heard people say nothing can be certain
unless it’s litigated and that’s technically true but that’s technically
true about anything, not just copyright.
– Yes, that’s true. – You’re never certain until a judge has stamped the the judgment. But the underlying issue of
how would you prove that, well, in an ideal world,
you would file suit and then you would be
entitled to discovery which we tend to focus on the drama of the trials on TV and in the movies but the vast majority of what
lawyers do day in and day out is actually just the process
of getting all the facts that are relevant. In The U.S. at least, we’ve sort of done away
with trial by surprise. We want everyone to know all of the facts before they get to trial
and so a lot of my job has been spent writing discovery requests where I will ask for the
relevant documents from you and in court, you are
obligated to turn those over and I will often conduct these interviews of the witnesses of the other side, those are called depositions, and so if state of mind is relevant, then you would be entitled to sue them and then find out all the
people who made the decision and you’d be able to put them in a chair and you would ask them under oath what they thought about
this particular song that was taken down or this video.
– Yeah, a video. – And you would be entitled
to all the documents, maybe all the email traffic where they dealt with
this particular video. It’s a cumbersome process but
that’s how you deal with it. You get the discovery in that topic. I really hope that creators are less afraid of copyright
issues in the nature. I think that there’s a lot
of great stuff out there and there’s a lot of bullying going on, certainly a lot of copyright infringement on the internet as well but for all of these
music channels that I see, your channel Paul Davids, Adam Neely, you guys are doing such great
work with music education. – Yeah, and we all have
music business education too. We’ve taken these classes. Anyone who has a music degree knows at least the
rudiments of copyright law ’cause we have to. – Right, right. – So we know what we’re
doing for the most part. – That’s awesome. Well, I hope you keep at it. I love the channel. I recommend anyone interested
in music theory 12tone, the channel that Cory created, really is the absolute pinnacle of musical analysis on YouTube. – Thank you.
– So keep at it and hopefully the studios don’t
give you too hard of a time with your material. – I’ll just keep appealing. – Yeah, sounds good. Well Cory, thank you for joining the untitled LegalEagle interview. – Yeah, thanks for having me. (eagle screeches) Okay, cut the cameras. Thanks for doing this interview, Cory. I really appreciate it. Cory, have you ever heard of Audible? You might really enjoy this audiobook How Music Works by David Byrne. He’s the lead singer of Talking Heads and he does a really fantastic job of explaining how music
has evolved over time according to both the
context that it’s written in and how music technology advances. Wait, what? Yeah, I know you’re already
an expert about music theory but it’s an amazing
exploration about music from one of the great
pop authors living today. It talks about how one genre absorbs the influences of other genres, how musicians anticipate what
their audience will want, and how instruments were
suited for music venues, not the other way around. No, I don’t care if you’ve
already read the book. Why don’t you just listen
to it again on Audible. Audible is giving LegalEagles
a free 30-day trial with two free originals. All you need to do is go over
to or text LegalEagle to 500-500. You can download any
audiobook of your choosing and get two free Audible originals. No, no, no, they should
use my link, not yours. No, I don’t care if you also have a link. People should use my link
because clicking on the link in the description really
helps out this channel. Cory, you should definitely go and check out How Music Works on Audible. Just head over to or text LegalEagle to 500-500 or click the link in the description. Yes, I’m talking to you, Cory. Who else would I be talking to?

100 thoughts on “LegalEagle Answers 12tone’s Questions About Copyright – Real Law Review

  • LegalEagle Post author

    Get a two free originals and a 30-day trial of Audible (and support this channel) by texting "legaleagle" to 500-500 or clicking here:

  • Christopher Banos Post author

    Could you do a video where you put Youtube "on trial" to see whether some of their demonetization on videos were legally justified?

  • Paul Tracy Post author

    This is like doctor mike but with law

  • Scott Grist Post author

    Please cover the Gibson vs Dean copyright lawsuit in a future video.

  • Connor Herbert Post author

    Could you do some episodes of Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law (some because each episode is ~10 minutes long)? It's currently streaming on Hulu

  • JustOneMorePaul Post author

    It's UMG. It's always Universal Music Group.

  • Devan Nava Post author

    Woah. Cory Arnold looks exactly like Patrick Gill from Polygon.

  • milksheikh Post author

    Warner can be aggressive with strikes, Here's a question, if a company acquires IP through buying out another company can they change the conditions of the IP? Ikon FCL (the video wing of Factory Records) released everything they produced as Creative Commons but Warner who own Factory's backcatalogue still ruthlessly strike Ikon FCL material even though the original Creative Commons disclaimer is right there in the credits.

  • morfanaion Post author

    Question, doesn't making a false DMCA claim (for instance, because the alleged infringement clearly falls under fair use) constitute perjury?

  • Espresso Stalinist Post author

    Hey there, LegalEagle! Long-time fan here and it's amazing how your channel has taken off in so short a time! I wanted to suggest you analyze the court scenes in "The People vs Oj Simpson" on Netflix and Kirk and McCoy's show trial in Star Trek XI: The Undiscovered Country (whew, you'd have some fun with the Klingon legal system). Considering how popular the series is you might consider the last episode of HBO's "Chernobyl" too. For sheer entertainment purposes, I STRONGLY recommend the deposition of David E Taylor too. Thanks for all the great content!

  • WishMaster Djinn Post author

    Don't know if you already have, but if not you should check out red dwarf the trial.

  • Frank Harr Post author

    I know 12 Tone! It's great!

  • Shy Tamir Post author

    Quality content. Much appreciated.

  • ForeverDegenerate Post author

    @LegalEagle I'd love to see a follow-up to this video talking about International Law and Copyrights. For instance, what if we, here in the United States use material that is Copyrighted in Japan? Speaking from personal experience, International Copyright is a big thing for me because if the parent company outright refuses to release the content outside of their country, then the ONLY way for me to consume said content is "illegally" through third parties. So I'd be interested in hearing about the legalities with respect to instances like this.

  • Hi!Score Post author


  • Jose Nell Andrew Tumulak Post author


  • VoonomCubed Post author

    I would really like to see him react to bull, the tv series, I am genuinely curious to see how legally accurate it is!

  • readyforit hu Post author

    React to smosh and order please

  • David Schelz Post author

    On this same subject of copy right laws I hope you can talk to team four star, in the past theyve been hit so hard by this and their opening has become just a common opening to all abridged shows on here

  • Musics The Hang Up Post author

    this is such a good idea.

  • Ryan Poole Post author

    @legaleagle I know both are old but I would love to hear thoughts on "judgement at Nuremberg" and the actual court scenes in "drop dead diva" I feel like drop dead diva may not be accurate based on prior vids but still

  • JanderVK Post author

    Thanks for this! One thing I was hoping that would have been discussed, though I understand given the time restraints, was the fact that Ethan & Hila Klein of H3H3 were the first to successfully fight back against a fraudulent copyright claim. Hopefully this helps set a precedent for the future and these skeezy mf's back off.

  • Christopher W Post author

    I would guess…UMG

  • Ferdia O'Connell Post author

    this isnt long enough! my fav channel this year, love your videos man!

  • Quiwi Lin Lisolet Post author

    My quess is Warner Music Group

  • Shaun Keasey Post author

    Are you going to review Philadelphia?

  • MW2366 Post author

    Me: *Plays a single G-Note*
    UMG: This is copyright infringement.

  • Five Fluff Post author

    Can you please do a Real lawyer reacts to Orange is the New Black? Especially with the last few seasons, I think there is some great material you could use

  • Alexey Bereznitskiy Post author

    Can you do a video on jury nullification?

  • Clayton Coe Post author

    Universal Music Group

  • Michael Scally Post author

    I wonder if Legal Eagle got to talk to Lindsay Ellis at VidCon… I imagine they could have quite the discussion about the "Hobbit Laws"…

  • Michael Jin Post author

    Can you give a legal take on the Jason Lanier drama and potential legal claims on each side?

  • Fahim Zahir Post author

    If the Legal Eagle even goes rouge and establishes his own company…he would remind me of the illusive man from Mass effect

  • Paulo Bardes Post author

    Now that's one unexpected crossover!

  • Justin Michelson Post author

    I'm like 83% sure that Devin is The Batman…

  • FFVison Post author

    So, as someone who has started a small YouTube channel not too long ago, this isn't quite a bridge I have had to cross just yet, but I have intentionally tried to avoid any content that may even refer to copyrighted material (quoting lyrics or humming songs, etc.). I'm wondering what kind of compensation I might be able to get if I had a new video taken down due to a DMCA claim. I don't have enough money to hire an attorney to take someone to court, so am I just out of luck? It just seems like in order to protect myself as a YouTube content creator, I would need to be able to spend a bunch of money up front in order to defend myself against people making bogus claims. It seems like the people making bogus claims know that this is likely the case and they capitalize on that. There needs to be some major legal precedent set that would prevent this sort of cycle of abuse and intimidation.

  • Tony Hakston Post author

    I love collabs between content creators.

  • NinjaSkittlez Post author

    No comments involving people taking the bar exam, such shame for the channel.

  • luis carrillo Post author

    FAZE CLAN Counter sued tfue, can you cover that for us?

  • j. rodman Post author

    Objection: Sloppy use of posting copyright infringing meteriel as "pirating" which is not a legal concept, nor is its our being used in its vernacular.

  • LP4L Post author

    Speaking of music, can you talk about Katy Perry's plagarism lawsuit?

  • Quentin Jezewski Post author

    Objection! You have not reviewed the film Legal Egales starring Robert Redford. It is your namesake!

  • Peter Papineau Post author

    And now Katy Perry lost her lawsuit… So does that mean that there is now precedence? It seems that the Judge drew from a ruling on another case ( If so can we reverse it?

  • Daniella Treviño Post author

    Can you please do a react to the show Euphoria on HBO?

  • Shaun Cilliers Post author

    Yea its gana be sony music or umg doing all the claims

  • ArtificialDjDAGX Post author

    This SHOULD AND MUST hit trending. More youtubers need to know of this!

  • FlashyPaladin Post author

    Hey LegalEagle, have you heard about the massive personal data leak from E3?

  • michaelm6361 Post author

    Love the channel, I was wondering if there could be Laws Broken: Ghostbusters 1 & 2, Real Lawyer Reacts to Ghostbusters 2 and Laws Broken: Blues Brothers videos.

  • Cassandra Bromfield Post author

    Oh man…..years ago, I had a little studio where I sew and see clients. I had begun to receive phone calls about the music I am playing in my one room second floor studio/shop. Then received a letter form form a music company (BMI or something like that). The letter explained that I owe royalties to the company for the music that I am playing….I ignored the letter, thinking , WTH…it was not a legal document, just an nuisance in my everyday entrepreneurship and not number one on the list to take care of…..Then a phone call comes with a voice booming with confidence, that I would be responsible for this bill? or I will be taken to court…..Now I am thinking, should I call my Uncle (he was a judge) or lawyer friends etc etc. Although this is moving up on the list of importance, I still had other stuff to take care of first (rent, rent, rent)….Anyway I receive another call, this time a woman, softer voice…and I, frustrated with the stupidity of this soon to be lawsuit, I tell her the size of my business, that it's on the second floor etc etc etc….cue the SNL Church lady "never mind" and that was the end of that. Crazy when I think back, but I thought that when I purchased music, that was the end of my legal obligation with the record company…yeah if you play it in your house alone in the dark….thanks the interview was interesting and hope to see more.

  • Jon L Post author

    Hey Legal Eagle! Can you cover the ESA incident that’s happened early this morning? Tons of peoples personal information who went to E3 2019 was not secure on the internet, I’m wondering what kind of legal action may happen.

  • Andrew Post author

    Help some fellow YouTubers out with their situation?

  • Jamin' Way Post author

    You should review the Katy Perry Dark Horse case!

  • Conan Post author

    Hello I'm a big fan. I was wondering if you could do a video on the legal consequences of the Area 51 raid/meme that is planned to happen on september 20th this year. Say worse case scenario a few thousand people show up ( some are armed) and they all attempt to raid the military base and the military uses lethal force on the trespassers. Could the raiders be charged with treason? Could the man who started the facebook page face charges for something akin to inciting a riot?

  • John Harvey Post author

    Request. Legal accuracy of the film "double jeopardy"

  • Mynamajeff Post author

    Never would have expected this one. Saw Adam Neely's video on it, can't actually believe the verdict to be honest.

    Have you seen Silicon Valley? In it, a good half is focused of the second season is focused on a case brought up against Pied Piper from Hooli. Pretty interesting stuff in it, especially with the attorney they use.

  • Gambit08 Post author

    Alright LegalEagle we want to know your thoughts on the Katy Perry ‘Dark Horse’ case

  • Marc Fetty Post author

    You should review The League s1 e5

  • Aden Kamath Post author

    What is the best way to get hired by Watchtell Lipton Rosen and Katz?

  • The Flute Channel Post author

    God, I love this! I knew I thought I saw you at VidCon. Its also nice to see Corey! Love the show, both of them!

  • M R Post author

    Please cover the Equifax Data Breach Settlement and how they are trying to get out of paying anything because they “allotted” not enough for the cash payouts.

  • Dragon50275 Post author

    12Tones sounds like exactly the type of channel I've been looking for – thanks for making this collaboration with them!

  • Dan Powell Post author

    7:20 OBJECTION. You're never certain until the appeals are exhausted.

  • tim Tom Post author

    UMG or universal music group

  • culwin Post author

    Can a bee file a DMCA, legally? Asking for a friend.

  • Soturian Post author

    This something I saw with mods on Quora. People pass judgement lightly with only a glance before pushing the Collapse button.

    I was a Quora writer for a time, and my best piece was actually distributed in their newsletter to a quarter million people. Months later, it was collapsed (which means it's there but algorithms won't recommend it) for "Plagiarism." I was bewildered, as I wrote the answer on my phone over lunch because I was bored and it had nothing in common with anything else on the web, and appealed it as such. The appeal was rejected in less than 90 seconds.

    Also, after becoming a mildly famous writer with hundreds of followers, I was banned for unspecified reasons.

    The mods ob Quora are just randos like anyone else. Zero accountibility.

  • CED99 Post author

    How about a Legal Eagle video on a bit of Formula 1 legal controversy? Glenn Beavis is alleging Daniel Ricciardo owes his management company for £10 million!

  • Andrew Plummer Post author

    Lawyer reacts to Blue Brothers soon surely

  • Nikky Walks Post author

    Sir- for the love of God- please check out the entirety of Tim Heidecker's trial on Adult Swim. It's somewhere between a mockumentary and a bizzaro comedic performance art piece, but as far as I can tell, it feels staggeringly real to how a court proceeding would go.

  • Peter Wood Post author

    I'm not sure if there's a good video to be made from reviewing Night Court or not, since the actual cases aren't the subject of the plot all that often.

  • OminousFlare Post author

    Could you take a look at the court scene from Lucifer, season 2, episode 10 ("Quid Pro Ho") to see if it holds up?

  • Ed Radley Post author

    To use this video as a springboard, would you mind doing a video on music copyright in general for cases such as Coldplay v Joe Satriani, Vanilla Ice v Queen and David Bowie, and most recently Katy Perry v Flame? You should as part of your source material/evidence look at the Four Chord Song by the Axis of Awesome.

  • Thomas Sacreas Post author

    Love the videos. Seeing as you mention you're interested in copyright law, I would love to hear your take on the Katy Perry / Flame ruling. Either with or without watching Adam Nealy's video on the matter first 🙂

  • Jennifer Elder Post author

    Have you heard of Jim Sterling's Copyright Deadlock? If so, I'd like to hear your opinion.
    The gist of it is that if he's making a youtube video and is sure that a company will unfairly claim the content he will add in content that other companies aggressively flag. This prevents any one company from getting the revenue from the content.

  • Quorange Post author

    You should do the ham episode of Community

  • Michael Kuchelema Post author

    please look over Find Me Guilty

  • Dogdaytona Post author

    May i ask with you legal background and with what just happened with E3 and the press leaks of personal info do you think there is a good case for something like. Miss handling of personal information or something? I have heard the word doxxing but can that be used as a base for a legal case? What actions could happen if something like that where taken to court?

  • max bresticker Post author

    Do a video on the movie Philadelphia

  • Cassandra Collins Post author

    Question: with youtube being an american company and me being an australian if i were to upload videos would i be using american or australian laws or would i be using both

  • Dennis 2 Post author

    Can you explain the win in the movie "Saint Judy", immigration law.

  • Rodney Wise Post author

    Can you do an episode of bluebloods it's not strictly a legal drama but I would love to hear your thoughts it's my favorite show

  • Nate Sassoon Post author

    Perfect crossovers don’t exi-

  • KeisariSA Post author

    This is great, please do more stuff like this.

  • Nick Theboss987 Post author

    Do reservoir dogs

  • Melissa Scheliga Post author

    I object to the fact that you have not done an episode yet on Legally Blonde. Or Chicago. Please! 🦅 🇺🇸

  • ScratchPRO Tenorio Post author

    Sometimes I miss the so serius and super educational things unlike nonsens content.

  • Source_16 Post author

    @legalEagle Greetings from Saudi Arabia ,
    Love your work , I should have went to law school and not engineering 😀
    Could you do the movie "Flight"

  • Erika Masala Nilsson Post author

    I'd love to see you talk about the recent lawsuit by Flame against Katy Perry. To me as a non-lawyer and music enthusiast, the judgement in that case looks super dodgy, and I'd love to understand it a bit better. (Adam Neely has a good video on it btw: )

    Also, wouldn't it be fun to review a full episode (or several) of Boston Legal?
    No? 🙂

  • Doctor What Post author

    I would for real love an episode just on how to dress

  • Captain Vegas Post author

    Legal Eagle AND 12tone in one video? It's like Christmas!

  • Nick LikesFitness Post author

    Just for kicks and giggles you should review the law and order with chickens sketch from robot chicken lol

  • Liam Horton Post author

    10:03 I have spent a solid minute trying to determine if you said "the" or not before Talking Heads

  • Night Fox Post author

    I realllly want you to react to Thomas Sanders video called “Selfishness vs Selflessness” he done a court room setting and I think used a lot of good terminology

  • Joseph juanico Post author

    I´m from Mexico, How difficult do you think it is for me to enter an ivy League University?

  • Dagon Fell Post author

    could you check how the macross/robotech "lisence" is even legal anymore?

  • Gaming Master Anthony Post author

    20 bucks says it’s UMC

  • Dutch29 Post author

    Sony Pictures claimed my meme video and forced it to be removed, but I though the Fair Use Act stated that using copyrighted material for comedic purposes was allowed…

  • Blazzer Blazzer Post author

    React to bull

  • Teetwo Dev Post author

    But in reality the small guy doesn't have the resources to fight a bank of lawyers. The casino can wait it out or out spend you. So is the end suggestion for this episode "just hang in there and keep doing what you're doing?" These guys can barely survive on the YouTube income. They can't afford a retainer or the expense of discovery and litigation.

  • Jay15951 Post author

    As a related topic I would love to see you cover is the IG metal and the youtubers Unions latest attempt to pressure YouTube into negotiations. One if their lawsuit threats, a potential violation of GDPR a European data protection law. And wondering if theirs anything similar in us courts

    News article in the potential suit

    Wikinoage in GDPR

  • TheMaesterMagus Post author

    Have you seen rules of engagement? It is a military court but you have done those before

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